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Order 171 Diplomacy
#31
Wow, ok, thanks. I think even an English major can work with that.
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#32
(10-20-2014, 01:02 PM)Cipher Wrote: I am not a fan of the decision to publish the formula, but since it's out I'll try to put some info here to help non-Math majors, although since it is math based there are limits.

There is a value for your group that is going to be compared to the value of the PC.

If the kingdom controlling the PC also controls the region and is Friendly in the region and has declared you an enemy, the order will fail.
It will also fail against an opponent's capital or against a PC that your kingdom already controls.
It will also fail if the top leader in the group is not a General or higher rank (170 only).

Compute the value of the group:
Start with the value v PC
Multiply by 1.25 if there is a Warlord in the group. (Yes his % is already included in the value v PC as well).
Multiply by 0.75 if the highest leader in the group is lower than General rank (171 only)
Multiply by any kingdom specific modifiers (as a percentage, eg .80 or 1.1)
Multiply by 1 + (0.2 * power level of wiz casting diplomacy spell, eg P3 = 1.6) (171 only)

DIVIDE this value by the regional reaction based value described in posts earlier in this thread. That value will be based on regional reaction affected by enemy/ally declaration, and potentially some kingdom's special abilities. This should be based on the value shown on your previous turn result's region reaction listing, but will never be less than 1.5 nor greater than 4.5


Compute the value of the PC
Start with it's defense value
Multiply by 2 if it is owned
Multiply by 1.25 if the owner also controls the region
Mulitply by 1.25 if the group belongs to a kingdom the PC controller has declared an enemy (1.5 if natural enemy)
Mulitply by 1 + (the value of any status quo - a baron whose king's influence is 10 will provide 10 * x.50 x .1 = .5, for a 1.5 multiplier)
Multiply by 0.85 + (random number 0 to 0.3) to provide range from .85 to 1.15

If the group's net value is greater than the PC's net value, the order will succeed, else it will fail.

Very very nice capsulization! The 30% random factor would seem to be sufficiently "fuzzifying" so not sure why you would disadvocate communication of this.

In any case, I now understand the "disenchantment" of those who like using magic. As if magic were not powerful enough....especially after the coming revamp. It seems to me that this does give the military kingdoms advantage in the beginning of the game, but that that advantage will shift in the mid to end game. And then, of course, you have agents........

I love the general thought of a dynamic change in the game with time required to master the nuances and rebalancing - as well as the changing of kingdoms - otherwise it potentially get boring. And so maybe this is why you didn't want to communicate some of the details (to extend that timeframe required for mastering the new changes). If so, there is a balance between that and player frustration, IMHO. But I am a NooB, what do I know?

Thanks for this Cipher! Nice work all around on the new order entry and all these changes you have been implementing. In some ways, it is quite the compliment to have senior players ask for a summary explanation. It means you are implementing too fast for them to keep up. And that is never a bad thing!

Now, if we could just come up with a fix to get players to get their orders in on time.........combined with what you have already done, this would become quite a significant competitive modernization of this age old classic - and that without all the useless graphical glitzy stuff from the other sites Huh

So is there any chance that an turn automapper/searched area logger could be in the cards? Or is that too much modernization for the oldies on the site Tongue

Great job Alamaze Staff! i would Heart you all, but I simply cannot bring myself to do it.
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#33
(10-20-2014, 02:02 PM)Beatific Wrote: Now, if we could just come up with a fix to get players to get their orders in on time.........combined with what you have already done, this would become quite a significant competitive modernization of this age old classic - and that without all the useless graphical glitzy stuff from the other sites Huh

So is there any chance that an turn automapper/searched area logger could be in the cards? Or is that too much modernization for the oldies on the site Tongue

Great job Alamaze Staff! i would Heart you all, but I simply cannot bring myself to do it.

Well, I know Rick's preference would be a platform that processes and emails turns at 1 minute post deadline without human interaction. The current platform is not a good fit for that, though.
And check out what bananas is doing re: the mapper, it looks very, very impressive so far...
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#34
Once again, Cipher is the Architect of Alamaze: we wouldn't be playing if he didn't do a hell of a lot, and he continues to try to make sense out of my sometimes disjointed phraseology and put all that into naughts and ones.

So I'm going to give everyone something of a present, and also take something away. Since we wanted players to know more about how 170/171 works, I'm going to attach the spreadsheet Cipher had to work with to translate into code. You can play with it. Just fiddle with the orange cells. I'm guessing someone would come up with their own thing anyway, so this way you get the official version.

What I'm taking away is no more questions to support on how this, or any other of the 160 some orders and spells, works. We get maybe 20-25 questions to support a day, most don't take more than 15 minutes, and players asking generally don't think its a big deal, or they don't do it often, but that's 5 hours a day, and again, we are not Microsoft. Please post your questions on the forum instead of to support. Of course, "legitimate" questions like not getting a turn result still need to go to support, but please don't ask about why an order works the way it does. Put that on the forum and if everyone is mystified, we will address it.

We really don't want to spell out how everything is resolved behind the curtain, but this one area was one even I wasn't aware of what happened from when the game went to NC, and I was surprised to learn the reality, and it may have cost us a couple players including a top player in Head Honcho. Now we all know, but don't ask for other formulas. Fair enough?


Attached Files
.xlsx   170&171.xlsx (Size: 12.42 KB / Downloads: 31)
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#35
Thanks for this, Ry Vor. It's definitely very helpful.
-The Deliverer
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#36
(10-20-2014, 01:02 PM)Cipher Wrote: I am not a fan of the decision to publish the formula, but since it's out I'll try to put some info here to help non-Math majors, although since it is math based there are limits.

There is a value for your group that is going to be compared to the value of the PC.

If the kingdom controlling the PC also controls the region and is Friendly in the region and has declared you an enemy, the order will fail.
It will also fail against an opponent's capital or against a PC that your kingdom already controls.
It will also fail if the top leader in the group is not a General or higher rank (170 only).

Compute the value of the group:
Start with the value v PC
Multiply by 1.25 if there is a Warlord in the group. (Yes his % is already included in the value v PC as well).
Multiply by 0.75 if the highest leader in the group is lower than General rank (171 only)
Multiply by any kingdom specific modifiers (as a percentage, eg .80 or 1.1)
Multiply by 1 + (0.2 * power level of wiz casting diplomacy spell, eg P3 = 1.6) (171 only)

DIVIDE this value by the regional reaction based value described in posts earlier in this thread. That value will be based on regional reaction affected by enemy/ally declaration, and potentially some kingdom's special abilities. This should be based on the value shown on your previous turn result's region reaction listing, but will never be less than 1.5 nor greater than 4.5


Compute the value of the PC
Start with it's defense value
Multiply by 2 if it is owned
Multiply by 1.25 if the owner also controls the region
Mulitply by 1.25 if the group belongs to a kingdom the PC controller has declared an enemy (1.5 if natural enemy)
Mulitply by 1 + (the value of any status quo - a baron whose king's influence is 10 will provide 10 * x.50 x .1 = .5, for a 1.5 multiplier)
Multiply by 0.85 + (random number 0 to 0.3) to provide range from .85 to 1.15

If the group's net value is greater than the PC's net value, the order will succeed, else it will fail.


Thanks for the help because I was obviously way off base. Based off the information above there appears to be no reduction in defensive value if the controlling King is minor in that region?
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#37
(10-20-2014, 03:45 PM)Hawk_ Wrote: Thanks for the help because I was obviously way off base. Based off the information above there appears to be no reduction in defensive value if the controlling King is minor in that region?

Correct
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#38
(10-19-2014, 10:30 PM)Jumbie Wrote: So cities aren't more difficult than other PCs for 320/330 either?

Asking for a friend.
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#39
(10-21-2014, 11:03 AM)Jumbie Wrote:
(10-19-2014, 10:30 PM)Jumbie Wrote: So cities aren't more difficult than other PCs for 320/330 either?

Asking for a friend.

Cities are more difficult than towns to 320/330.

The 25% referred to the increase in difficulty in 320/330 on a city with the version of the game we currently play versus the 1st Cycle version of the game.
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#40
Thanks, Rick. Much appreciated!
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