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(01-20-2014, 11:17 PM)gkmetty Wrote: [ -> ]As a player returning to the game I will admit that I asked many questions. Almost all of them were due to my lack of knowledge and in fact the answer was pointed out to me as being in the manual. I also took advantage of the multiple revisions of orders.

The fact remains that I am a consumer and I expect a certain level of service. To date the service level has met my expectations based on the fees charged. If the fees are going to increase then I will need to reevaluate the service I expect.

For increased fees I dont expect to have my Kingdom turn left out of the game processing, which in turn requires all turns to be reprocessed and the random game results changed.

I dont expect to be charged additional fees for a game on a new map and then have the game restarted 3 times because the code is not accurate. Most Beta tests are free, not charged extra.

I dont expect my game results to be rerun because a spell that was submitted on the turn sheet was not processed.

While the code has been in place for 25 years the game is still processed by humans, although some believe Cipher is actually a cyborg, and mistakes will happen. To my knowledge the players have been tolerant of the game based mistakes that have taken place. I would expect any new fees to be reasonably implemented and if I find them unfair then I will need to reevaluate my decision to participate in the great community of Alamaze.

I think this is a totally fair post. And I think Rick's response to it was also totally fair.

My biggest issue on the price changes is with e-mailing support. For kicks, and because I like data, I went back and quantified how many e-mails I've sent, and whether or not I had what ended up as a valid question.

In 223 turns over 14 games (3 Titan, 2 Warlords, 9 Regular), I believe I've e-mailed support 23 times regarding issues. Of those, 12 ended up as valid questions, the other 11 were my own mistakes or rules errors or misunderstandings. (And there have been fewer of the latter in more recent e-mails, thankfully.)

Out of the 12 valid questions, some were simple errors, but I've also uncovered a number of system bugs that were subsequently fixed (Resurgent map error that multiple people undoubtedly flagged, fleet scrap error that multiple people undoubtedly flagged, Greater Mask error that I believe I was the very first to spot), and a couple of system bugs that are known issues and haven't been fixed (718 Speed spell over water for dragons, and how certain Kingdom brigades and special brigades are sometimes taken as losses).

Alamaze is a great game, and I'm glad the code has worked, by-and-large, so well for so long. And I'm glad Cipher is continually improving it.

But the reality is that as with any human endeavor, there are still bugs and errors. And I don't think it helps the situation to charge for e-mails to support, simply because that will have a chilling effect on such e-mails, and real problems will go unreported.

My $0.02. This is the only charge that I have an issue with. It is, however, a relatively significant issue for me, and as Rick agrees is my right, it may very well impact my enjoyment of and participation in this game.
Same regarding questions and advice. kdusi13@gmail.com.

As to fees, and to get the thread back on track, I think the only real objection that I have is the fee for resubmission, as I feel it runs counter to comments made previously (I think by Cipher, but not positive) regarding how it is good to get orders in early. If I do that with a fee being charged for a resubmission, then I am at a disadvantage if something changes (new info, email from another player, etc.) after I submit my turn. However, if we are continuing to move towards and automated order-entry system, then I imagine this fee is only until that happens, at which point I will just suck it up and try to get all my planning done before I need to submit orders. If that's not the case, then I can see the resubmission fee potentially adding up to the point that I limit the number of games I'm in.
email query fees for 2nd cycle are fine, but I think the fees should be waived for resurgent until we're sure the bugs are out.


(01-21-2014, 06:54 PM)kevindusi Wrote: [ -> ]Same regarding questions and advice. kdusi13@gmail.com.

I want to dye streaks of my hair or underneath layer red. But I feel like if I did that, people would think the wrong impression. I believe that if its what I love I should do it, but maybe in the long run its not such a good idea. What would you think about a guy with red streaks?

(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...908AA7uE8N)
(01-21-2014, 09:49 PM)Jumbie Wrote: [ -> ]email query fees for 2nd cycle are fine, but I think the fees should be waived for resurgent until we're sure the bugs are out.


(01-21-2014, 06:54 PM)kevindusi Wrote: [ -> ]Same regarding questions and advice. kdusi13@gmail.com.

I want to dye streaks of my hair or underneath layer red. But I feel like if I did that, people would think the wrong impression. I believe that if its what I love I should do it, but maybe in the long run its not such a good idea. What would you think about a guy with red streaks?

(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...908AA7uE8N)

I always say to be true to yourself, Jumbie. If you have to dye it, it is not you.
Ever hear about writing out that bitchy email, and then not sending it, but you get it off your chest by writing it? I just did that.

Of course, no one gets billed for reporting a bug. That's ridiculous. No one that has actually been billed for extra service has complained. They own up to it.

Earlier I posted about anyone knowing of a PBEM with better service, pricing, player contact, etc, to tell us about it in detail with all facts. There were none.

Always treat your Alamaze Team and our personal reputations with respect, whether its about playing a game with you or providing you service, else you will be required to leave. We are nobody's boy and it's certainly not for someone's $2 a turn we are doing this. 'Nuf said.

For the rest of us: Rock on in Alamaze!
I can absolutely promise you that no disrespect was or is intended. Is there something that led you to believe there was??

On the bug reporting, you make it sound obvious and self-evident, but where the rubber meets the road is if a player thinks in good faith that there is a bug, but it actually turns out that the player was mistaken.

If the answer is there is no charge, then great, my concern essentially disappears. If there is a charge, then my earlier concern remains.
(01-22-2014, 01:02 AM)Ry Vor Wrote: [ -> ]Ever hear about writing out that bitchy email, and then not sending it, but you get it off your chest by writing it? I just did that.

Of course, no one gets billed for reporting a bug. That's ridiculous. No one that has actually been billed for extra service has complained. They own up to it.

Earlier I posted about anyone knowing of a PBEM with better service, pricing, player contact, etc, to tell us about it in detail with all facts. There were none.

Always treat your Alamaze Team and our personal reputations with respect, whether its about playing a game with you or providing you service, else you will be required to leave. We are nobody's boy and it's certainly not for someone's $2 a turn we are doing this. 'Nuf said.

For the rest of us: Rock on in Alamaze!

Ry Vor, I don't think the issue is whether there is something out there comparable to the game as it stands. I think we're all here because we think that the value is there and we're not out playing other games. If there was something comparable at a better price point, I think we'd all be there.

For me, the issue is similar to what some of the other guys have posted. At a certain point, costs add up to where it makes sense to look at things again and say "is this the best way to spend my money?" Obviously as someone playing in several games (6 to my count, including a warlords game), that threshold is pretty high for me. As I stated previously, what may come back to bite me is the extent to which I have availed myself of the opportunity to submit multiple orders. Since the NC days, this has been something that has been available at no charge. As one fear is always missing a turn deadline and not having orders at all, we are encouraged to get orders in early. Unfortunately, that only works if everyone is on the same page. All too often we receive information at the 11th hour that requires some tweaking of plans, etc. For me, this will require a change of behavior as I am one of the guilty ones that, for each game, would send in 2 or 3 order sets (and at 6 games that is a lot). I'm willing to give it a go and, if it ends up being too rich for my blood because of how I run things, then I will have to reevaluate. Not because there is a different PBEM option out there, but because there are other things that may be worth it. A new board game, video game, book, etc.

I like to think that in all my interactions with the Team I have treated them with respect. I may ping every day or so when trying to sort through an issue (or get results that simply were never mailed out with the rest of the turns), but I am happy to wait for things to get sorted out as long as I have a reasonable amount of time to adjust before the next turn is due. Where I think that respect could be returned is in the tone of the posts essentially challenging the player base to go out and find a better deal. We're all here because we don't want to do that, but the tone of "there isn't anything better out there, so deal with it" may rub some of us the wrong way, myself being one of those.

I plan to continue playing. I plan to try to adjust my habits so that I'm not submitting multiple turns because that seems to be a pain for the Team and now extra expense for me. If the trend, though, is to see increasing costs to maintain the same level of service that has been there for me since game 101 (or reduced service at the same cost, if you want to look at it that way), then at some point it will be time to look at things from a cost/benefit perspective. Not just for PBEM, but for entertainment as a whole, because that's the realm of what Alamaze competes with, for me.

I have a lot of respect for Ry Vor, Cipher, and the Team. They do a great job and keep a game running that I love to play. I understand that they need to make sure they are doing things to make sure they can continue to run the game (make money).

Again, I love the game and I think the value is there or I would not be playing. I just want to make sure it stays that way, and does so in a way that makes sense to both the people playing the game as well as the people running it.
Just a thought - I'd rather have my service level fee increased instead of paying a variety of different penalties charges for erroneously reporting a bug or resubmitting a turn.

Can we look at that instead?

I personally don't really care about the money, but I feel that the current proposed approach sends the wrong message and is likely to trigger the wrong behaviour, as others have already alluded.
(01-22-2014, 07:40 AM)Wynand Wrote: [ -> ]Just a thought - I'd rather have my service level fee increased instead of paying a variety of different penalties charges for erroneously reporting a bug or resubmitting a turn.

Can we look at that instead?

I personally don't really care about the money, but I feel that the current proposed approach sends the wrong message and is likely to trigger the wrong behaviour, as others have already alluded.

I wouldn't want my monthly fee to increase so that others can submit multiple sets of orders. Perhaps Rick should offer a 'Gold Package' that includes all those extra services at one low price.

I don't have a problem with fees. Either I will pay the or I will move on. My only problem is that there is no single place you can go to find out what all the various costs to this game are. They are spread around forum posts where no new player is likely to see them. It gives the impression that the fees are hidden.
Folks,

I don't want to get into how the sausage is made, no one outside of The Team should really care, but Alamaze processing is not like Fall of Rome. When we get a web based order entry and order checker, it will be a relief to the players and most of all, to the game master. If it does what we think/hope, then, as in Fall of Rome, players can modify their orders to their heart's content, free, and requires none of Grasshopper's time. And their own errors will be dramatically reduced. Good for everyone. BTW, we have recently had some progress on that front.

Until then, I just want players to understand, there is a person or two who is trying to jump through hoops while keeping all kinds of balls in the air. Processing the turns is just a fraction of everything that is required to produce Alamaze. Writing this, or the other 800+ posts doesn't process any games. It doesn't bring forward the new ideas. It doesn't improve the look or feel of the game. This one in particular, is not likely to attract any new players. Every minute spent processing games takes a minute away from everything else. Kind of feels like a hamster on one of those spinning wheels. I am not aware of any personal service where a customer would expect they could get the same service 2 or 3 or 4 times for the same price as once. I am basically trying to change player behavior, more than I am trying to extract an extra $2.

I have a hard time with the idea that it doesn't matter what competing companies do. That's the space we operate in, meaning cost structure, labor time, development access, marketing ability, technology in play. If other PBEM games charge 4x the fee, process half to 1/4th as often, don't upgrade or even change the game experience for years, provide at best next day service if not next week, have ugly turn results, have form support email replies ("Thank you for your inquiry. It is part of the mystery of the game."). That's the standard we are blowing to hell, and its not a "so what?" to us. Its hard work.

Let's not get too wound up on the additional service charges you have never gotten. Do have an increased awareness that everything that is out of step with trying to make processing flow smoothly does have a cost.

Deliverer, you have been great and a joy to our daily toil. Love your sense of humor and even keel. No worries.
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