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Order 171 Diplomacy
#21
(10-19-2014, 11:58 AM)Hawk_ Wrote:
(10-18-2014, 05:39 PM)Wynand Wrote:
(10-18-2014, 12:56 PM)Ry Vor Wrote:
(10-18-2014, 09:55 AM)Wynand Wrote:
(10-17-2014, 04:30 PM)Ry Vor Wrote: Having just deleted about 130 spam messages, I saw this. I'm actually not wanting it to be secret, I thought I had posted most of the particulars before. Its difficult to spell it all out as it is in both Excel and Word and both files contain other data.

Just add 0.5 to regional reaction with Friendly = 1 and Hostile = 4. So base group strength must be 1.5 to PC defense in a Friendly region. Must have a General +, a Warlord provides a 25% bonus. Cannot do in a region controlled by an enemy that is Friendly in region.

For Diplomacy spell, a wizard adds 0.2 per level. So normally a group might require about 3 to 1 in a Tolerant region. With a P4, it would be 2.2 to 1.

Again, it was never the intention that battles would be avoided as a common tactic by issuing Parlay or Diplomacy. That's what nobles (emissaries) are for.

Thanks Ry vor...not sure I totally got the regional reaction piece.

If I assume Friendly =1 and Hostile = 4,
wouldn't that make Tolerant 2 (not 3) and Suspicious 3?

Also, I would extrapolate from the rest of your comment that:

Friendly 1.5
Tolerant 2.5
Suspicious 3.5
Hostile 4.5

Did I miss something?

No, I wasn't being that scientific. You are correct, the base would be 2.5, but there is also a random factor of plus or minus up to 15% so players shouldn't try to get too precise. Again, with the rule of thumb method, have 3 to 1 in a tolerant region to be pretty sure of success, barring any existing status quo. If you have a P3 wizard casting Diplomacy, 2.5 should do it as well.

Oh, remember a controlled PC is x2 difficulty to Parlay or Diplomacize.

Appreciate the clarification, Ry vor.

Given this, as others would have already noted, it's virtually impossible to diplomacy a friendly controlled city (assuming a -25% penalty for cities) unless you have a massive group and an extremely potent wizard.

This is post brings up the importance of the order of operation in the formula.

Depending on the order a power 4 could get the friendly controlled city with a group that is that is around 1.9 the value of the city. This assumes the wizard had the .2 per level reduction.

1.5+.25=1.75? (city modified)

1.75-.8=.95

.95*2= 1.9 (controlled)

+/- 15% and the regional control modifiers...


If the controlling king was minor or also controlled the region those modifiers would come into play at the end I assume. There is finally the +/- random variable to throw you off.

No, percent of (of means multiplication), and it never matters in what order you multiply numbers, you always get the same products.
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#22
.2 per wizard level is now coded. Cities are no more difficult than any other PC type for 170/171.
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#23
So cities aren't more difficult than other PCs for 320/330 either?
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#24
I'm having bad SAT flashbacks with all these math word problems. And I scored in the 98th percentile.
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#25
[
No, percent of (of means multiplication), and it never matters in what order you multiply numbers, you always get the same products.
[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification and explanations. It makes more sense to me now.
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#26
(10-19-2014, 10:00 PM)Cipher Wrote: .2 per wizard level is now coded. Cities are no more difficult than any other PC type for 170/171.

If this is the case then things should be more like this for a P4 on the controlled city.

1.5-.8=.7*2= 1.4 group value vs PC defense for a friendly controlled city.

Then after the double there are modifiers for regional control, etc... and the random +/- modifier.
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#27
(10-20-2014, 12:23 AM)Hawk_ Wrote:
(10-19-2014, 10:00 PM)Cipher Wrote: .2 per wizard level is now coded. Cities are no more difficult than any other PC type for 170/171.

If this is the case then things should be more like this for a P4 on the controlled city.

1.5-.8=.7*2= 1.4 group value vs PC defense for a friendly controlled city.

Then after the double there are modifiers for regional control, etc... and the random +/- modifier.

I am confused. In your calculation, do you mean for a neutral controlled city in a friendly region or an enemy controlled city in a friendly region? And does the etc encompass the military strength of the power in question?

As I understand it, it is possible for a strong military power (RD or GI) to take an enemy controlled city on a 1.5 to 1 (with a reasonable amount of attrition in normal terrain) whereas a non military power might be more like a 2:1. So why is this seen by some as a negative impact on the magic using kingdoms? Going from a 2:1 to a 1.4:1 by using the magical arts of a P4 seems reasonable. I suspect, though, that I am missing something........notwithstanding the 15% random modifier O-:E
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#28
(10-20-2014, 10:31 AM)Beatific Wrote:
(10-20-2014, 12:23 AM)Hawk_ Wrote:
(10-19-2014, 10:00 PM)Cipher Wrote: .2 per wizard level is now coded. Cities are no more difficult than any other PC type for 170/171.

If this is the case then things should be more like this for a P4 on the controlled city.

1.5-.8=.7*2= 1.4 group value vs PC defense for a friendly controlled city.

Then after the double there are modifiers for regional control, etc... and the random +/- modifier.

I am confused. In your calculation, do you mean for a neutral controlled city in a friendly region or an enemy controlled city in a friendly region? And does the etc encompass the military strength of the power in question?

As I understand it, it is possible for a strong military power (RD or GI) to take an enemy controlled city on a 1.5 to 1 (with a reasonable amount of attrition in normal terrain) whereas a non military power might be more like a 2:1. So why is this seen by some as a negative impact on the magic using kingdoms? Going from a 2:1 to a 1.4:1 by using the magical arts of a P4 seems reasonable. I suspect, though, that I am missing something........notwithstanding the 15% random modifier O-:E

To make a long story short, the reason it's viewed as a negative to magic kingdoms is because their groups are quite weak in terms of their value versus PC (one of the main determinants of success). For example, even combining all the WI starting brigades gives you a value of only 16K. Using RY (p-4) gives you a value of around 28K, only slightly better than 1.5 times the defense level of most cities. Since controlled cities are twice as hard to diplo as others, that means even the strongest magic kingdom will fail to diplo a city in the early going. And that's assuming you're friendly in the region.
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#29
This whole thread is a very interesting read. But for those of us who were English majors, is there a nice summary chart someone can create? I know it is not meant to be exact, but even a directional chart (like the one we have for agent actions) would be helpful.
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#30
I am not a fan of the decision to publish the formula, but since it's out I'll try to put some info here to help non-Math majors, although since it is math based there are limits.

There is a value for your group that is going to be compared to the value of the PC.

If the kingdom controlling the PC also controls the region and is Friendly in the region and has declared you an enemy, the order will fail.
It will also fail against an opponent's capital or against a PC that your kingdom already controls.
It will also fail if the top leader in the group is not a General or higher rank (170 only).

Compute the value of the group:
Start with the value v PC
Multiply by 1.25 if there is a Warlord in the group. (Yes his % is already included in the value v PC as well).
Multiply by 0.75 if the highest leader in the group is lower than General rank (171 only)
Multiply by any kingdom specific modifiers (as a percentage, eg .80 or 1.1)
Multiply by 1 + (0.2 * power level of wiz casting diplomacy spell, eg P3 = 1.6) (171 only)

DIVIDE this value by the regional reaction based value described in posts earlier in this thread. That value will be based on regional reaction affected by enemy/ally declaration, and potentially some kingdom's special abilities. This should be based on the value shown on your previous turn result's region reaction listing, but will never be less than 1.5 nor greater than 4.5


Compute the value of the PC
Start with it's defense value
Multiply by 2 if it is owned
Multiply by 1.25 if the owner also controls the region
Mulitply by 1.25 if the group belongs to a kingdom the PC controller has declared an enemy (1.5 if natural enemy)
Mulitply by 1 + (the value of any status quo - a baron whose king's influence is 10 will provide 10 * x.50 x .1 = .5, for a 1.5 multiplier)
Multiply by 0.85 + (random number 0 to 0.3) to provide range from .85 to 1.15

If the group's net value is greater than the PC's net value, the order will succeed, else it will fail.
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