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Watch towers and watch tower failure
#11
(06-08-2020, 12:50 PM)The Painted Man Wrote:
(06-08-2020, 11:56 AM)Ry Vor Wrote:
(06-08-2020, 11:26 AM)RELLGAR Wrote:
(06-07-2020, 07:17 PM)Ry Vor Wrote:
(06-07-2020, 06:11 PM)The Painted Man Wrote: Any insight to the lack of watching done by the aforementioned towers? Especially if an L4?

I thought I did answer that.  May not detect Concealed emissaries.  At L4, it would not fail against non-hidden, but at hidden it would be like L1 against non-hidden.

The part about them not always working as intended?.

Watchtower should be just as an L4 agent doing recon in that area.   I'm not sure if the code gives a 5% chance of failure to detect Ambushing as an L1 would have on normal recon.

So here's the issue - and I emailed the turn to support so you could have a look - I have watch towers at a pop center. I also have an emissary there that is not concealed. I received no recon information from the watch tower this turn (doesn't even show the pc there). It has worked with no issue for over a dozen turns. There was no note in the turn about a failed recon or anything along those lines. It simply looks to not have done anything. It is possible that the people assigned to watch tower duty aren't the smartest or most driven, I suppose, but the description gives no indication of potential failure.


L4 recons won't pickup ambushing groups....see my post here...
http://www.kingdomsofarcania.net/forum/s...9#pid38299

About the watch tower, your pc has a glyph of concealment (hidden). You'll need a L10+ recon to get through one of those. That's why your Dire Wolf Familiar won't pick up anything there as well.

And your wizard's innate true seeing spell did the recon of the hidden pc on previous turns...you must have moved the guy.
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#12
Thanks, UncleMike. Unfortunately, things don't add up. Also, unfortunately, this is an active game... so I was trying to be a bit more circumspect. Now that more details are out there, let's discuss.

I sent to support a turn from much earlier in the game, before I ever dreamed of a wizard with true seeing. I also sent one from more recent, with no true-seeing wizards present at the capital. Both had a recon of the PC via the watchtowers. I can send other turns if needed that all show the same (and without true-seeing).

Please refrain from sharing too much of the detail, but if something funky caused the issue that the community needs to be aware of.

My understanding is that an L4 will see a hidden capital (which is why you use those to look for hidden capitals). However, you won't see the groups because they're flagged as "invisible", which requires the L10+ as you note. So, I'd expect to see the PC and emissaries, but not groups. This is consistent with prior results. I'm not sure what's different this turn.

As an aside, I'd expect a dire wolf familiar to see the PC and emissaries, but not the groups (similar to the watch towers).
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#13
(06-08-2020, 07:44 PM)unclemike Wrote:
(06-08-2020, 12:50 PM)The Painted Man Wrote:
(06-08-2020, 11:56 AM)Ry Vor Wrote:
(06-08-2020, 11:26 AM)RELLGAR Wrote:
(06-07-2020, 07:17 PM)Ry Vor Wrote: I thought I did answer that.  May not detect Concealed emissaries.  At L4, it would not fail against non-hidden, but at hidden it would be like L1 against non-hidden.

The part about them not always working as intended?.

Watchtower should be just as an L4 agent doing recon in that area.   I'm not sure if the code gives a 5% chance of failure to detect Ambushing as an L1 would have on normal recon.

So here's the issue - and I emailed the turn to support so you could have a look - I have watch towers at a pop center. I also have an emissary there that is not concealed. I received no recon information from the watch tower this turn (doesn't even show the pc there). It has worked with no issue for over a dozen turns. There was no note in the turn about a failed recon or anything along those lines. It simply looks to not have done anything. It is possible that the people assigned to watch tower duty aren't the smartest or most driven, I suppose, but the description gives no indication of potential failure.


L4 recons won't pickup ambushing groups....see my post here...
http://www.kingdomsofarcania.net/forum/s...9#pid38299

About the watch tower, your pc has a glyph of concealment (hidden). You'll need a L10+ recon to get through one of those. That's why your Dire Wolf Familiar won't pick up anything there as well.

And your wizard's innate true seeing spell did the recon of the hidden pc on previous turns...you must have moved the guy.
Tell me more about his dwarves!
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#14
(06-08-2020, 08:38 PM)The Painted Man Wrote: Thanks, UncleMike. Unfortunately, things don't add up. Also, unfortunately, this is an active game... so I was trying to be a bit more circumspect. Now that more details are out there, let's discuss.

I sent to support a turn from much earlier in the game, before I ever dreamed of a wizard with true seeing. I also sent one from more recent, with no true-seeing wizards present at the capital. Both had a recon of the PC via the watchtowers. I can send other turns if needed that all show the same (and without true-seeing).

Please refrain from sharing too much of the detail, but if something funky caused the issue that the community needs to be aware of.

My understanding is that an L4 will see a hidden capital (which is why you use those to look for hidden capitals). However, you won't see the groups because they're flagged as "invisible", which requires the L10+ as you note. So, I'd expect to see the PC and emissaries, but not groups. This is consistent with prior results. I'm not sure what's different this turn.

As an aside, I'd expect a dire wolf familiar to see the PC and emissaries, but not the groups (similar to the watch towers).


See my attachment or read Uncle Mike's Corner for more info on hidden pc's...


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
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#15
Uncle Mike, I appreciate all that you do... But your answers in no way address the issue, which is frustrating. If a watch tower is a level 4 recon, which shows hidden PCs, why is my watch tower not showing anything? Especially if it has in all prior turns.
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#16
(06-08-2020, 06:01 PM)The Painted Man Wrote: Bloody wankers, ffs.

Yeah, we need a new text result for this possibility.....
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#17
I guess that wasn't the best reply to a serious question.  Again, given the way we communicate between design and development, I don't have all the answers on how odd events are actually resolved.   That said, I do think it is remarkable how well Mike has implemented things and how we get zero errors.  We really get almost no complaints and those we get are really misinterpretations or a need to update a rule, rather than the code itself.  But I understand not every possibility is covered in rules, and this has been a philosophical conversation. 

Specifically, one thing on my list for the next go around is to both in code and rules to more directly define what is L1, L4, L7 and L10 detection.
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#18
Well, if I had to guess, I would say it's your Dire Wolf Familiar that's causing the issue. That's why you didn't get a recon on the turn when your wizard leveled with an intrinsic Dire Wolf. By raising the wizard again the following turn (for an intrinsic True Seeing), the higher L10 recon took precedence and you received a report for the hidden pc.

The Watch Towers and Dire Wolf are both L4 recons which the program strips out by agent level. This occurs normally since during a turn, a kingdom can have a crapload of recons of the same pc. Recons from multiple agents, multiple wizards (raven, eagle, wolf, true seeing, intrinsic versions), group trails, intercepts, artifacts like Totems, special kingdom abilities like Trackers or the Druid's auto-recon of pc's, etc. There could be a ton of recons that are accumulated during a turn for a given pc and the program has to remove duplicates of all of these recons or the kingdom turn report will display a report for every entry loaded in the accumulated queue.

So unless the situation is further investigated, I would say that if there is an issue, it is with the duplicate removal of where the code strips out duplicate map areas by agent level (or equivalent if wizard spell or artifact), without checking other criteria like making a distinction between a dire wolf spell vs. watch tower ability or special kingdom ability like tracking.

To get around this, I would say move your dire wolf wizard out of the hidden pc then your kingdom will only have one L4 recon (from watch towers) and it'll be ok. Another would be to raise your dire wolf wizard to true seeing level (just one more level for the Underworld kingdom), and the L10 recon would take precedence. Or if you don't want to play around with your wizard levels then use a human agent recon (970) that's higher than L4 every turn to override the watch tower.

Hope this helps but I really don't have the time to investigate...
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#19
Thanks, Mike. I appreciate the response. Sounds like best guess is I hit the sweet spot where the program thinks I have a dire wolf so removes a recon, but I didn't yet have the dire wolf because of timing of the orders/spells.
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#20
(06-09-2020, 10:08 AM)The Painted Man Wrote: Thanks, Mike. I appreciate the response. Sounds like best guess is I hit the sweet spot where the program thinks I have a dire wolf so removes a recon, but I didn't yet have the dire wolf because of timing of the orders/spells.

Underworld gets Dire Wolf Familiar (as an intrinsic spell) at level 5. That means, the spell effect automatically triggers every turn for you. So if you have a pwr-5 wizard in one of your groups with a Watch Tower building enhancement, it may cause an issue.
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